Writer Chat 157: The Hierarchy of Writers

Nina (canada) scripts are not novels, do not write them that way; if you want to know about how to write dialog – find out what the newest communication fad is in hollywood
(clue Nueral Lingistic Programming) and write that way

RLB Hartman (USA) The newest fad changes too often to suit me. Grammar does, too; but a confirmed grammar guru never lets that get in the way of a stinging rebuttal. LOL

Nina (Canada) frankly, so do studio execs. rotate too often. people play the short game and do not look at the bigger cultural pattern that drives the swirl of decade rotational trends and techno advances.

When I was doing the Three Day Novel contest, I joked to the head of Anvil Press that I would do an all dialog entry

His jaw dropped open and said that would be really experimental.

I had just dropped off my entry on the Monday morning at 9 am so that year, mine was the first in the door and normally they never get them that quick.

but I worked across the street and when I handed it in, I joked that since I was first, I should get to be the winner.  That made him laugh.

Anyway, I learned a lloooooott about that iconic Vancouver contest. I did it 9 times.

Three Day Novel Contest

Martin Collison (USA)

Neurolinguistic Programming has been around a long time now, and it’s a pretty interesting area, I think.

A few months ago I rewrote a scene on the board to help someone and wondered why it had such a positive response from so many people. Then I realised that in response to the request for help I’d instinctively included elements that highlighted the aural, visceral and visual experience of the protagonist for the reader, rather than focusing on just one (perhaps the one I personally experience).

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s value in thinking about that. Like most things in psychology, NLP is a mix of the very good, the bad and the ugly.

RLB Hartman (USA) That reminds me of a script (a short, maybe? or not) someone here posted that was completely in code or nonsense words, but formatted correctly, and had an actual cadence to the lines, impeccable in execution and consistency.

I thought it marvelously innovative and subtly ironic, and gave it high marks.

Unfortunately, the Powers That Be here saw it differently, removed the script, and thereby my review.

Nina (canada)
yes it was invented in and also debunked in the 1970s

it is marketing and bumper sticker psyche

it works well on the punters

this way to the Egress

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Annie (USA)

Can a screenplay be considered a work of creative or literary nonfiction? I ask because most ‘literary’ fellowships are awarded in one of three categories: fiction; poetry; or creative non-fiction, but I find no such fellowships awarded to screenwriters, or any mention of screenplays as acceptable submissions. Dictionary or Wiki definitions for ‘screenplay’ do not address the ‘literary’ question.

The AROHO Foundation that sponsors the Shakespeare’s Sister fellowship is also offering a two-year $50,000 fellowship ($35 entry fee; deadline 11-2-2015) for the best writing submitted in their fiction, poetry, or creative nonfiction categories (two runner-ups to receive $5000).

From the University of Vermont we get this partial definition of creative/literary non-fiction:

“…successful creative nonfiction attempts to overlay fact with traditional conceptions of dramatic structure. While rendering meaning from an observed scene, a piece should suggest a beginning, middle and end that clearly conveys the conflict and the characters, and pushes the action toward some sort of closure.

In effect, creative nonfiction attempts to project a dramatic, literary framework upon everyday existence, rendering it enjoyable, enlightening and potentially meaningful.

While writing creative nonfiction, writers should dwell on sensory details and “show show show.” A piece should never just tell the reader something or summarize—this is what research non-fiction does.”

That description sounds to me like ANATOMY OF A MURDER, BREAKER MORANT, GOODFELLAS, PATCH ADAMS, PERFECT STORM, AMISTAD, KING’S SPEECH, THE QUEEN, and other fact-based screenplays.

Can an argument be made that a screenplay can be a work of creative or literary nonfiction and, as such, a proper writing for a literary fellowship competition? Thanks for your thoughts or arguments.

Nina (Canada)

no.

screenplays are not in and of themselves an art form they are a production template

although there is an art to them, eh?

Annie: Thanks, Nina. This writer disagrees with you in his assertion that screenplays are, indeed, literature and continually moving in that direction: http://www.ibiblio.org/cdeemer/cfs0602.htm

Wendy Jane Henderson

I suppose a lot depends on a person’s definition of “art form.”

All plays are drama. Regardless of the medium for which they are written. Drama is an art form. Cinema as expressed in theatrical film is an art developed from drama. Since stage and screenplays are the primary means by which the arts of drama and cinema are delivered to an audience, the only way anyone can get around stage plays and screenplays being an art form is to deny that drama and cinema are arts.

Personally, especially with drama which has been recognized as an art for thousands of years, I see no way to do that. But I have had people tell me that neither drama nor cinema qualify as arts.

To each his/her own.

Nina

because they are now being included in DVDs and box sets

they have become a consumer item

it has also become a fashion to read them

HOWEVER, they are not written for reading

they are production driven and not meant to be read by outsiders

this is where the amateur, the poser and the professional slide is the greatest

and is now inside out

whatever my view – that writer is correctly identifying the media/medium trend

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the other issue is the artist vs craft vs hack

best to least writers

novels
playwright
teleplay/screenplay pulp novels

in publishing and theatre the writer is god

in tv and film, the director is

plays are written to be cast and recast at the community to pro to high end stages

movies are not, one time, remake or sequel if you are lucky

and the credit goes more to actors and chemistry
director and editor

even the producer for putting the team together

despite
it all starts

with the writer

Christopher Kilshaw Walker (UK)

The British may (or probably not) be on the verge of a hideous epiphany: namely that the boarding school elite they revere come from a Dorian / Spartan tradition of systematic child sexual abuse lovingly handed down from the Greeks and Normans and lovingly cherished to this day by Uranian / Paederast writers and philosophers.

The Greeks should be studied rationally, with all dangerous pro-paedophile propaganda stripped away. Only trouble is, there would be surprisingly little left….

Nina (canada)

Tom Brown School Days — did you ever read The Flashman novels about his bully?

Christopher Kilshaw Walker (UK)

I seriously doubt any future monarch has ever had to run the true gauntlet of Eton’s fag system: any sixth former expecting a young Edward or William to be a compliant junior sponge and bed-warmer will automatically wave goodbye to a knighthood and possibly his bollocks.

I read the original, but I never read the Flashman novels.

Nina (canada)

I did not read the original so much as I read the Classic Illustrated Comic Book from the 50s and 60s that my Mom had.

I found that an easier way to understand plays too –

the flashman novels were written in the 60s and make that bully into a Jame Bond type scoundrel – Malcolm McDonald did some of them as movies around the Clockwork Orange era

Flashman goes to India where he cowards his way into metals and honours and then goes to America;  were again his craven cowardice as being the last man standing lets him re-spin to be the heroic survivor.  they are freaking hysterically funny

 

Wendy Jane Henderson (USA)

>>For the first time, NYTVF is partnering with Lifetime in search of talented television writers with bold new scripted concepts for further development opportunities…<<

>>The NYTVF-Lifetime Writers Project is soliciting new hour-long, brand-defining series concepts from emerging TV scribes.<<

It is awfully hard to be a talented television writer and an emerging TV scribe when one has never worked in television, let alone written for it.

In fact, I’ve been trained and done some work in both areas. I have a three page CV, and I sure would like to think EARTH NOW INCORPORATED is a bold new concept. But I’d be a damn fool to hold my breath.

This one will go to people who have experience in television and show considerable promise with scripted content and development.

Actually, on the development plan the title is EARTH NOW INC. I hope it attracts attention. Whether the execution of the script is sufficient to rate even semifinalists status in the Lifetime contest is another matter. However…

One of my scripts did win an award for the TV movie division of a major contest, and, thanks to help from industry friends, I think now I have a pilot that’s decent enough to enter in contests which allow them. I figure that was a worthwhile goal.

 

Nina Tryggvason

I think that means you were a good gofer and junior writer on a series or two and now you wanna be a show runner as head writer of your own.

not recent grads or Newbies

yup

I was in the Next Wave competition sponsored by National Film Board, BC Film and Telefilm.

I heard the same rumor that some pros from CBC had won this contest which was to find newbies from too many sources

so I called my contact on the committee and told her point blank

they then picked the absolute least qualified applicant – I don’t think the film even completed and then the contest, ran only twice, and I second placed both times

 

RLB

It’s the same in the DIY novel world, as well.

IMO: People who have a great story but no writer skills should wise up and seek an accomplished wordsmith to tell it.

But I hope none of them comes knocking on my door. I have my own pursuits and no longer hold hands at any price. (“none” is a singular pronoun and requires a 3rd person singular verb form; yes, an “s” there does NOT mean plural). I do, however, post frequent perfectly free lessons in grammar for those who might benefit.

Susan DeSandoli

I think they work where they work – sometimes they are the most straightforward way to present an image or show what is happening, and twisting around in knots to avoid using “is …ing” is at least as annoying as using “is …ing” but they don’t work where they don’t work as well.

(Captainess Obvious)

Sal

“…(“none” is a singular pronoun and requires a 3rd person singular verb form; yes, an “s” there does NOT mean plural). I do, however, post frequent perfectly free lessons in grammar for those who might benefit….

Actually, “none” can be plural or singular

Example from the internet: I left three pies on the table and now there are none. None were left when I came.

In your example you used none as a synonym for “not one”: not one of them…..that’s why you used the singular.

RLB Hartman

When writers start quoting from the Internet, it’s time for me to exit this effort and paint.

Sal Pietromonaco

Aw c’mon stop being a snob. It was Merriam-Webster’s site. I would have quoted from my dictionary but technology doesn’t yet allow links to hardcover books.

Nina

I find it funny that people consider dictionaries to be authority, when they are merely current usage indexes.

literalness can’t cope with conceptualizing or abstraction

 

 

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writing creates with words

photos create with light

painting with colour

drawing with images

 

but they all require, someone to observe and consider them….

 

if you are writing to be read/viewed/observed by the general audience

or …